AB7072 Through DF1 Splitter?

Anybus Support Anybus Gateways
#1

I have an AB7072 that I’ve gotten talking directly do my PLC-5. It reads the data, but the Subnetwork Status LED stays solid red. Not sure why… Any way to see what that means / if it matters since I’m reading the integers fine anyway?

My main issue is I’m now trying to talk through this Prosoft DF1 Splitter and it’s not working. I have an AutomationDirect HMI that’s talking through it just fine now.

Here’s the config on the port the Anybus is connected to:
image

I’m also trying to work with Prosoft support but thought I’d get your take. Config file attached.

Grinder 2 PLC5 Communicator.cfg (16.0 KB)

Additional info on my DF1 question
#2

The AutomationDirect HMI they have on the machine requires that the PLC-5 be in System (Point to Point) mode.

It seems like the Anybus requires the PLC-5 be in System (Slave) mode. Is there anything I can do? Do you have another gateway that can talk to a PLC-5 that’s in Point to Point mode? Prosoft has one that will work but it’s like 3x the cost

#3

It looks like you are trying to use RS232 with more than two nodes which isn’t going to work. You should be using RS485 if you’re going to use more than 2 nodes.

#5
#6

Here’s what the Prosoft guy says (please make this thread private since this is from my email)

The below is obviously a bit sternly worded… I think he’s assuming you know more about the Prosoft DF1 splitter than you do.

However, based on the information he gives, it seems that the splitter is brokering the connection in such a way that we can do RS-232. I think the idea is it’s 232 from the master devices to the splitter, then it goes 232 to the PLC.

So again, I think the issue is that the gateway requires the PLC be in Slave mode, which does not work if we want the HMI to be able to talk. The PLC-5

If we were talking about the PLC5 being a Half Duplex Master to multiple slaves, the statement from HMS would have some validity. But, this is NOT what you are doing. You are trying to get multiple DF1 Masters talking to the same, single slave, something the DF1 protocol does not normally allow. So, their statement is irrelevant to your application.

I think whoever you talked to at HMS is making the very common mistake of equating the RS-232 full-duplex and RS-485 2-wire half-duplex electrical interfaces with A-B DF1 Full Duplex and Half Duplex messages. You do not have to use RS-485 half-duplex electrical interfaces with DF1 Half-Duplex message structures. One is NOT directly related to the other.

In fact, one good reason to use our Port Expander is so that you CAN use different electrical interfaces to talk to the same slave from different Masters. Just going to RS-485 WILL NOT allow multiple Masters to talk to one slave using Half Duplex DF1 messages. Full-duplex messaging will allow either node on the ends of a two-sided, point-to-point connection to initiate or receive messages between the two. Using RS-232 or RS-485 is not a factor.

Plus, that statement totally ignores the fact that our Port Expander gateway is in use. You can do RS-232 to the PLC5 from our gateway and do RS-232 or RS-422 or RS-485 to any of our Slave ports from any device and it will have no effect on the structure of the messages that are being sent. If they think their device will work better if you use RS-485, then try it. If they think that setting up the PLC5 for RS-485 and wiring to are Master Port using RS-485 will help, you can try that, too. But, I don’t see how that would be anything other than a waste of time.

The whole purpose of our 5102-DFM-DFS3 DF1 Port Expander is to allow something that normal DF1 protocol cannot do, regardless of which electrical interface is being used. If the HMS is set up as either a Full Duplex or Half Duplex DF1 MASTER, it should work through our Port Expander. If it is not set up as a Master, then it would be expecting our module to be the Master and we have only one Master port for talking to the PLC5 as HD slave or point-to-point (FD peer).

But just changing the electrical interface type will not change the type of messages being sent/received. I think there statement is a non-sequitur…it is not a valid conclusion based on the facts at hand.

#7

Just following up on this…

#8

I’m sorry Tom, I’m not very familiar with that DF1 splitter device. Can you provide a little more detail about which devices are being connected and their protocol and role as slave/master. I suspect that the AB7072 is not the right device for what you are trying to do and want to make sure to give you right information.

#9

I have a PLC-5. It’s talking to an AutomationDirect HMI, don’t know the make/model but it needs to talk to the PLC-5 with the PLC-5 in System (Point-to-Point) mode.

I need to pull tags from the PLC-5 and put them on Modbus TCP while still allowing the HMI to talk to the PLC-5. So I got the DF1 splitter.

So I need the PLC-5 to communicate in Point to Point mode to both the HMI and a DF1 to Modbus TCP gateway. The AB7072 seems to require the PLC-5 to be in System (Slave) mode in order to talk. The HMI cannot talk to the PLC-5 while the PLC is in System (Slave) mode.

So I need a DF1 to Modbus TCP gateway that can talk to the PLC-5 via DF1 while the PLC-5 is in System (Point to Point) mode.

Prosoft has a gateway that can do it but it’s 3x the cost.

So:
HMI / DF1 / Master
Gateway / DF1 / Master
PLC-5 / DF1 / Slave

Then the Gateway will be a Modbus TCP slave so I can pull registers from it. The gateway will read an integer file from the PLC-5 and pass it along to the Modbus TCP side

#10

Unfortunately, I don’t think we don’t have a great solution in this case. You might be able to pull this off with a Flexy with a serial port, but the communicators don’t have a wide range of DF1 options. Have you already tried full duplex from the AB7072 to the PLC-5?

#11

Going Full Duplex has nothing to do with it.But yes.

#12

I haven’t had a chance to look too deep into the ProSoft manual yet - but it does look like we should be able to communicate with the splitter if it’s configured as a DF1 slave without handshaking in RS-232 half duplex mode. I will look into it further and touch base with you tomorrow.

#13

What’s the word?

#14

Hi Tom,

I’m sorry for the delay. After going through the Prosoft manual, I think this can be made to work, it just might require some complex configuration. My main concern is not the AB7072 communicating with the Prosoft splitter, that’s an easy enough master/slave set up, but like you said, the PLC5 is in DF1 Full duplex Point-to-Point mode where the AB7072 is a Half duplex master. However, it looks like the ProLinx ports are independent, and the device can simulate PLC commands and has internal storage (page 10):

“Each port is configured independently. Support for half-duplex (master-slave) and full-duplex (point-to-point) DF1 links are provided on the ports. Simulation of a selected set of functions from the basic, PLC5 and SLC command sets are supported. Virtual files are mapped to the internal database in the module to provide support of the PLC5 and SLC command sets.”

It looks like this is the configuration you will need to use for cabling:

image
image753×527 38.4 KB

You will probably need to check back with the gentleman at Prosoft about the configuration on that end. The cfg you sent me looked like a good start, but you will have to add your transactions. I am going to continue to look at this, but wanted to at least get back to you this morning with what I had.

Kyle

#16

Oh boy, well here’s what Prosoft guy says. I think there was a bit of a mixup:

I suppose, at this point, I should apologize to you, and our friends at HMS, for the fact that we do not have a User Manual specifically for just the 5102-DFS3-DFM Port Expander. Unfortunately, all we have is the DFCM Driver Manual, that explains our normal DFCM driver, used in our two-protocol ProLinx gateways, which also has a few pages about the Port Expander. This manual talks about how the DF1 side of the gateway works to pass data between DF1 serial devices and other devices using another protocols (like Modbus, DNP, etc.) by storing data in common, shared-access database memory.

While this is true of the standard DFCM driver, it does not apply to the 5102-DFS3-DFM. The Port Expander module does not use a common, shared database for passing data between the slave and master ports, as the standard DFCM driver would do. No, the Port Expander is not a memory-mapped gateway. It is, instead a DF1 serial pass-through/route-back device that works in a different way than the way the standard DFCM driver does. It does not do any data conversion, data storage, or even message type translation. It just takes the message received on any of the slave ports and passes them to the actual Slave, which is connected to the Master port. It works exactly as if it is not really there in between the remote Master and the target slave.

DF1 Full Duplex messages have a unique and different structure than DF1 Half Duplex messages. To work with our Port Expander, we expect that the remote Master will be set up as if it is talking directly to the slave as if our Port Expander is not in between. This means, if the slave is set up to use Full Duplex, sometimes called, “DF1 Point-to-Point”, then the remote Master will also need to be set up to send out Full Duplex messages for our Port Expander to ‘pass-through’. If our Port Expander was not there, then a Half Duplex Master would be able to talk to only Half Duplex slaves. Or a Full Duplex Master would be able to talk only to Full Duplex Slaves.

It is too bad we were not far-sighted enough to accept messages on the slave ports in either format, Full or Half Duplex and have the Master Port be settable for whichever of the two message types are being used on the Slave, and then translate back to whichever format is needed for the remote Master…but we didn’t.

So, this is why you are having trouble with your application. You have one Master that can be only Half Duplex and one that can be only Full Duplex, so the slave can be set up to talk to only one or the other…because we do not translate messages or use a shared database.

I think I may have mentioned to you on the phone that, if you were to use our 5102-MCM4-DFCM4, you could forget about the Modbus options, use all four serial ports as DF1 ports, set one as the Master to the PLC5 Slave in Full Duplex, and then use the other three ports as Slaves in whatever Duplex is needed for the remote Masters. This 5102-DFCM4 DOES use a 4000-register shared memory database for passing data. It would work for your intended application, but the data updates might not happen quite as quickly, just because you are shuffling all your data through that internal memory. Or, it might be fast enough that you would not notice the difference.

The section that our friend at HMS cites from the User Manual definitely applies to the 5102-MCM4-DFCM4 and definitely DOES NOT apply to the 5102-DFS3-DFM. The only way you will be able to get different Masters using different types of DF1 messages to talk to one slave would be with the 5102-MCM4-DFCM4 in all-DF1 mode.

#17

Hi Tom,

This is good info to know. Do you plan on switching it out?

Deryck

#18

Switching out to the Prosoft unit that’s both a splitter and a gateway? Well, maybe. The reason I was posting was to see if HMS has a product that could talk to the PLC-5 via DF1 with the PLC-5 in System Point to Point mode. If not, then I’ll have to go with the much more expensive Prosoft option, which would involve getting rid of the HMS gateway entirely

#19

The Communicator would be the only Anybus device with Df1 that I’m aware of. Another option might be to use the DF1 on the Flexy which uses PCCC requests or the DF1 to ethernet/IP bridge.

Deryck

#21

Topic closed due to inactivity.